Ep.8 : Pioneering Passion in Podcasting w/John Asante
In this episode of Beyond the Threshold, I am joined by John Asante, a Ghanaian American, award-winning independent audio producer, showrunner, and consultant based in Los Angeles.
John has produced and developed over 30 podcasts for various outlets, including HBO, Netflix, Hartbeat, Audible and Imagine Entertainment and worked for companies such as Street Studios, Neon Hum Media, and Stitcher.
Also, John independently hosted and produced Play It Back, a podcast telling stories of how music lovers discovered the songs that have changed their lives.
In this episode we discuss:
- His time at WRAS and Sirius XM that shaped his skills and passion for audio.
- How he adapted his public radio skills to the podcasting landscape.
- Navigating the freelance landscape as a minority in the audio industry.
- Setting rates and the importance of networking.
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How to support & connect with John
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[00:00:00] John Asante: A showrunner on the basis is the person making sure on the daily and weekly level that everybody knows what they're doing and setting the course of action for a podcast from start to finish from like the idea and the development all the way to the launch.
[00:00:20] Sidney Evans: Tune in. As we give flowers to black men and women making waves in the audio industry.
[00:00:26] Sidney Evans: I'm your host, Sidney Evans, and this is Beyond the Threshold.
[00:00:43] Sidney Evans: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Beyond the Threshold. I'm your host, Sidney Evans, an award winning audio editor, mixer, and producer. For those of you who don't know on this show, I interview Black men and women working in the audio industry to highlight the lessons and experiences it takes to achieve success in the field.
[00:01:02] Sidney Evans: We've got another great episode in store for today as well as another amazing conversation. Guest and preparing for this interview and and doing research for this guest, obviously LinkedIn kind of creates the outline for their career and kind of get a feel for the person. So as I was doing that I found myself looking at the recommendations.
[00:01:21] Sidney Evans: It was nothing but, but positive things, kind words, and that's the vibe I kind of got from him and just communicating with him to get on and record this this episode, so, yeah. To give you a little bit on his background. He's a Ghanaian American and award winning independent audio producer, showrunner, and consultant based in Los Angeles.
[00:01:41] Sidney Evans: He has over 15 years in the audio world, which have been devoted to crafting stories that shine a light on black and brown people, as well as folks from marginalized communities. He has produced and developed over 30 podcasts for various outlets, including HBO, Netflix, Heartbeat, Audible, and Imagine Entertainment.
[00:02:00] Sidney Evans: He also independently hosted and produced Play It Back, a podcast telling stories of how music lovers discovered the songs that have changed their lives and before forming his own production company, he was a showrunner on various podcasts for Pineapple Street Studios, Neon Home Media, and Stitcher.
[00:02:19] Sidney Evans: So without further ado, I'd like to introduce today's guest, John Asante. Welcome to the show. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. I'm like, I'm really looking forward to this conversation outside of the skills and ability. I do like to have people on who are talented, but also good people. And that tends to reflect in the work and the relationships that You build, you build professionally and through your personal life as well.
[00:02:43] Sidney Evans: So first and foremost, just kind of want to get a little bit of background on you in general as a person. And then we can get into like your inspiration and influences that made you want to get into the audio world. What kind of was the motivation for you to Taking this career path.
[00:03:00] John Asante: Yeah, sure. So as you said I'm Canadian American, whole famous from Ghana.
[00:03:04] John Asante: I'm first generation. It was interesting from the beginning because nobody in my family isn't really a creative space until like this current generation, only a couple of my cousins and stuff. So going the audio route as an, you know, something in entertainment was not something that I was exposed to. I grew up between New Jersey and Georgia, but Atlanta is home.
[00:03:26] John Asante: And I think what really got me into pursuing a career in audio or some form of entertainment was watching a ton of sports that are growing up. Like you, I was into sports played baseball, basketball, soccer. So on and so forth, a bunch of other stuff and Stuart Scott, rest in peace, was one of my huge inspirations from his like catchphrases, like boo yeah, and like all of his like energy and the way he reported these stories was so amazing that like when I was like 15, 16 in high school, I was like, I want to do that.
[00:03:55] John Asante: So I started off writing for my high school's newspaper, went to college at Georgia State University knew right away I want to do journalism. And went in thinking I was going to be like a TV reporter and work my way up to like hopefully like CNN or ESPN one day and along the way I wrote for my school's newspaper, did some reporting for our TV station, but our TV station shut down.
[00:04:18] John Asante: So a lot of us who were doing reporting went over to the the radio station, WRAS, shout out to 88. 5, album 88, because it was like really well respected. The frequency of the station went all over Atlanta and I came in just like reporting the news at the top of the hour, a couple of days a week. Then I saw the DJs and I was like, I can do that.
[00:04:39] John Asante: They don't really have like the best speaking voices. I had always been like really big on like the performance of audio and radio. And. After I saw him do it a bit, I was like, I, I knew that this is something I could do. I had a passion for music, a bit of playing, but mostly going to shows collecting CDs, just getting my hands on anything I could.
[00:04:59] John Asante: And I just love the range of music they were playing. It was all like indie underground stuff. We didn't play anything mainstream, although it was one of the first stations to like really put like Outcast on the map before they went like huge. So, I became a DJ doing kind of like regular rotation during the week.
[00:05:15] John Asante: And then I became a co host of a blues show with my friend shout, shout out to Kyle Stapleton, who encouraged me to do it with him, even though I didn't know a ton about the blues at the time. And that rolled into also me doing more on air work with the new station or the new side of the station.
[00:05:32] John Asante: And I ended up like Become the news director by my senior year and hosting what would have been a podcast at the time. This was like 2008. So podcasting wasn't nearly as big of a thing, more so a hobby. And I did this public affairs show that was kind of like interviewing whoever famous came through the station or different professors and stuff.
[00:05:51] John Asante: And it was just really fun. I love doing it. And it was great. I interviewed comedians actors, writers. It was just really, really great to have that access. And I had an internship in D. C. at SiriusXM summer before my senior year. And that's what really motivated me to be like, Oh, I want to do this. I was a producer, production intern on the public radio channel of Sirius.
[00:06:19] John Asante: This is before they merged with XM, it was like the same summer. And I basically got to work on the show called The Bob Edwards Show, which was kind of like fresh air. But done by a different guy who used to host Morning Edition, but then had left to go to Sirius when Sirius was first getting out really big deals.
[00:06:37] John Asante: And I got to meet all those people who were former NPR producers. And at the time, I barely listened to NPR. Like, I did, I barely knew about it. I did not grow up in a house of public radio. It was either radio or CNN or some other news, local news. And I started to learn about how to create stories without the visuals with audio.
[00:06:55] John Asante: And it was amazing. I was like, this is challenging, but this is really fun. I got to pitch a few different people to interview and a few different topics to cover, and I got to produce three full interviews on my own, like 30, 40 minute long interviews during that internship. And I was like, this is more than I've done in any of my classes that were more so video production based.
[00:07:14] John Asante: And that was the light bulb that went off. I was like, I came back as a news director. Hosting that show being like, okay, this is what we're going to do. I'm like, my motivation was to go back to DC after I graduated during the worst economy, at least back then and become a a public radio producer.
[00:07:34] John Asante: And so, yeah, I think I kind of shelved the, like the TV dream of sorts because I realized how much how much intimacy there was an audio and how much I could do. And yeah, that was my motivation. Summer after I graduated from college, I did not have a job lined up, at least a full time job. I had like a temp job at my school working in like the what we call it, the commencement office.
[00:07:55] John Asante: Like. Planning the graduation ceremonies, but I was like, I'm going back to D. C. Somehow, somehow got a last minute internship at NPR working on a weekend, all things considered. And from there I got to learn the tricks of the trade for public radio. I got to like work on some intern projects, got to just chat up anybody I could, the likes of like Ari Shapiro and like Michelle Martin folks that are still there today.
[00:08:19] John Asante: And. I was like, this is it. I think I want to do it. And that's what led me in because my, my action, my career started in public radio, and I got my first job at the end of 2009. And that's kind of what charted the course. But I will pause it here.
[00:08:34] Sidney Evans: Yeah, that's that's actually a good place for me to jump in because I just wanted to say like and me pursuing media, like I went to Fayetteville State University and it was in a mass communications department and a lot of like outside of these, like obviously Georgia State is bigger and Fayetteville State's a smaller HBCU in North Carolina, but a lot of the times like our education and what we're exposed to there, it's like very broad and you kind of have an idea of what you want to do.
[00:09:04] Sidney Evans: But you may not necessarily get to do it within the context of going to school. Like for me, sports was a, was a big thing for me. Like I originally majored in mass comm because I wanted to be like a broadcaster, sports broadcaster. And I did, I did all these other things in during my time there and learned and to, to kind of tie it all in.
[00:09:24] Sidney Evans: You know, a lot of times we start off wanting to do things and then you get exposed to something and it kind of takes you down a whole path. Like I don't think there's too many young you know black kids growing up saying, well, I want to do public radio. Like, I don't think that's the thing. Like you could, you could end up doing it obviously and take a liking to it, but I don't think you go into it with that being the goal.
[00:09:44] Sidney Evans: But as far as your experience in public radio how long, how long did you work in, in public radio?
[00:09:50] John Asante: Total of seven years five at NPR. From 2009 to 2014, and then I left for a bit, then came back at WNYC, and I lived in New York for about from 2016 to 2017.
[00:10:04] Sidney Evans: Cool, so how did you, I guess a question would be like, what, Were some things that you learned that kind of you looking back on and I realized, okay, this, these are really a foundational skills and it's something that kind of, I was able to carry with me throughout the course of your entire career.
[00:10:21] Sidney Evans: And obviously we'll get into the things that you did afterwards, but I'm just curious about what were those foundational things that looking back on, you saw they're very important.
[00:10:30] John Asante: Yeah, for sure. Number one, editing is key. Whether it's your script writing, your editing audio, and I'll probably use this interchangeably, at NPR, they would say cutting tape, in a way you're thinking about, also about as a listener, how long should this last?
[00:10:46] John Asante: How long is it going to be interesting? How long can I keep a listener's attention? What do I get out of this? What are they getting out of this? So that was huge for me. Also, in terms of cutting tape, kind of finding the balance between what should stay and what, what shouldn't stay. I think it's evolved a bit where, where it used to be cut out all the errs and ums and cut out all the breaths and stuff like that, or a lot of them, like we don't need pregnant pauses, but I think over time I also learned that that's what makes people human.
[00:11:15] John Asante: Like we have filler words like, like, and you know, and and these are just. natural, like not unless you teach yourself not to, but I still feel like that's weird. What else? I learned how to pitch and how to work through a pitch that doesn't not get picked up and be okay with that. Like, you know, you miss a thousand percent of the shots you don't take or whatever that quote is from Wayne Gretzky.
[00:11:35] John Asante: But yeah, yeah, it was a lot of like just learning how to deal with like, all right, you're not ideas not going to go through. That's totally fine. What else? Deadlines. I learned how to work on deadlines because the first couple jobs I had were news based and you, it was like you come in either knowing what you're going to work on for the day, which might air later.
[00:11:56] John Asante: And this is when I worked on talk of the nation and you would work on that. Or you get the assignment that morning, like we'd be in the pitch meeting and you're like, okay, cool. And mind you, when I was working on the show, the war in Afghanistan was still going. So a lot of what we were covering was that.
[00:12:10] John Asante: And so it'd be like, okay, cool. You need to book this, someone who works in policy to figure out what's Obama's next move in, in in Afghanistan. And I wasn't too well versed on it. So I had to like, within a few hours, I had to Like, figure out who to book, like, read through articles, be like, okay, this person has a good take, we need to book this person, either I find them by, like, email, phone, their, like, press person, what have you, get them into a studio write a quick script for our host write questions Make sure all that went through, right.
[00:12:42] John Asante: And it was a live show. So I also had to screen calls. So it was all about deadlines. And when I tell people that, that I had to do that in like four hours, they're like, that's crazy because you know, we're podcasting. We have so much time, but I think having that sense of timeliness and just hitting deadlines was super, super important.
[00:13:01] John Asante: I'd say those are like the biggest things I took away from public radio. For sure. Yeah.
[00:13:05] Sidney Evans: I think that's kind of good to have to start off with something that is, they're both, they're both audio mediums, but starting from something that is a little more stressful and strenuous. And then when you kind of make a transition to something else that is a little more tame or is not as fast paced.
[00:13:23] Sidney Evans: Obviously it's actually better than, you know, the, the, then vice versa, having to maybe start off in podcasting and then, Oh, I want to do public radio. And you're like, Oh, this is much more fast paced. The speed at which things can move can be overwhelming. So that, and obviously I think another big thing you said is.
[00:13:40] Sidney Evans: You know, learn how to write questions, scripts or whatever, like the writing aspect of it, because that is the foundation. And I, I harp on this almost in every interview, but I do that for a reason because it's very important if you can, you know, if you're an editor or. Obviously, if you produce, you're expected to be able to write more, but if you want to continue to build your career and be more valuable, the better you write, the more valuable you'll be.
[00:14:07] Sidney Evans: That's something that I definitely learned. So to actually make the transition. So you said you worked in public radio for seven years, correct? What prompted the transition into podcasting? Was it something that you were, that you did consciously or was it just the nature of how things were evolving?
[00:14:25] John Asante: I think it was a bit of both, but more so the latter.
[00:14:28] John Asante: Because when I was in public radio, I can think the first time. NPR was starting to get into podcasts and the only real podcast they had was Planet Money and I wasn't listening to it all the time, but I didn't think of it as a podcast as we usually do where I'm like only listening to it on the Apple podcast app.
[00:14:47] John Asante: I guess back then it was iTunes. There was no Spotify wasn't doing podcasts back then. So, I saw that there was a different way to tell stories for playing money. They would air the stuff both on radio and on as a podcast. And that's something that NPR used to do a lot. And I think still does to some extent, but it was more so the evolution of the, the medium, like.
[00:15:10] John Asante: I actually left public radio coincidentally months before serial came out. And so I switched to doing this marketing job. Kind of felt like I wanted to do audio stuff on the side, audio projects, want to evolve my career. I thought I wanted to go get an MBA in marketing. I did it. And I think that was a very financially sound decision, but I saw how it was booming because of cereal and how much money was going into it, but more so the craft and how it was evolving and how like all my public radio skills directly translated, especially from a show that came from folks from this American life.
[00:15:43] John Asante: And. And also, as I saw the podcast or other radio shows really start to focus on the podcast side, I go, Oh, I can, I cut tape. I write, I can book guests. I have all this. I can do it. And for me, it didn't feel as limiting. Like, that's why I also created play it back was that. I knew I was never going to pitch it as like an NPR show, like it's, it's like super hard to get an NPR show made or even just like a public radio show made on a station, unless you have the ends or you have a good picture, you know, what have you, but I was like, I can do this myself.
[00:16:14] John Asante: Like I have the agency to do it myself. Like we all know it's a low barrier to entry. But then I, as I saw it evolve into more. Of like a structured, profitable, like medium that was evolving and that this Wild West scene was open. I was like, Oh, I can capitalize on this. Like I know what I'm doing. I can bring like really viable skills to helping out a team.
[00:16:37] John Asante: And so actually when I went back into public radio in 2016 at WNYC, my first gig there was on a podcast before I went back to doing a radio show. I worked on There Goes the Neighborhood, which was this seven part series. I think it was seven parts. Anyways, the first season that I worked on was about the gentrification of Brooklyn in At the time being, but just over the course of decades and having lived in Brooklyn and Crown Heights, I was seeing it happen firsthand and it was wild.
[00:17:05] John Asante: It was just, it was a temp job that led into hopefully, finally, thankfully, a full time job, but the fact that we didn't, we weren't adherent to like the radio deadlines and we were able to work on something at length and it was a narrative podcast, which I had been wanting to work on after years of doing live, live radio, lively tape even worked on a game show at NPR.
[00:17:25] John Asante: This was like a breath of fresh air. And I just realized as a producer, how many different things I could do. And it wasn't just about writing and cutting tape. I actually ended up kind of becoming, this was kind of like the beginning of me doing sort of a bit of show running. I realized they were like several different departments not talking to each other.
[00:17:44] John Asante: Like the newsroom wasn't talking to the podcast unit and the marketing wasn't And social media folks weren't talking to the editors and producers and the hosts. And I was like, let's bring it all together. And, and it was beautiful. We came up with, and I think the podcast did really well and it led to two more seasons in two different cities.
[00:18:01] John Asante: And I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to really be in the podcasting side of things instead of just radio.
[00:18:06] Sidney Evans: Okay. I'm glad you, you segue perfectly into, because one of my questions, I like to define things for people because those who. Obviously, we're in the audio world and this obviously is a platform for those already in audio too, but for those who are very early on or anything in between from, you know, early on to, to season like defining the terms, because obviously you go from You know, film, TV and podcasting there there are different terms within each medium, but then there are also similar terms, but they give me different things contextual to the medium.
[00:18:44] Sidney Evans: So before we get more into your show running experience, can you actually define it for us and then go into the experiences you have had with being a showrunner?
[00:18:54] John Asante: Sure. Yeah. So a showrunner. On the basis is the person making sure on the daily and weekly level that everybody knows what they're doing and setting the course of action for a podcast from start to finish from like the idea and the development all the way to the launch and For anybody looking for a job as a showrunner, if there are any out there, I'm not sure right now.
[00:19:20] John Asante: It's a really tough time in the industry, as I'm sure you guys know. That, that sometimes that job is listed as managing producer, senior managing producer. It's one step below an executive producer, basically. Like, also, even sometimes senior producers end up doing showrunner type jobs. And these terms get changed, interchanged, depending on where you're working and all that stuff.
[00:19:39] John Asante: Yeah, I see supervising producer a lot, too. Supervising producer also, in my opinion, falls under showrunner. But yeah, you're the one setting the course of action, making sure everybody knows what they're doing. Are the, are the produce, like, I think one of the biggest things is keeping people on track on schedule to get everything done.
[00:19:55] John Asante: Are you hitting the deadlines? Do we have the guest book in time? Are we getting our mixes done in time? Does everything sound good? Usually the Surrunner is one of the last people in some of the jobs I've had to listen to and do like a final QC of the audio before it goes out. So you're kind of the last line of defense.
[00:20:12] John Asante: Whereas like the executive producers usually comes in and out like they're in the beginning with like the ideation and development and the pre production and they might pop out because they're doing a lot more of the higher level stuff, you know, making sure that like sponsorships and ads are getting set.
[00:20:26] John Asante: Maybe working with a partner, if you're doing like production with another company to make sure everything's set, figuring out how the show just like gets out and makes money in some ways, actually, that is part of it, I should say, securing other deals for other shows and a network or a production company.
[00:20:41] John Asante: So yeah, you as a showrunner, you're usually, you're concentrating on that one or two shows that go on and also putting out fires. That's a part of it too. It's, it's not a sexy job if someone's got to do it. That's what I always say about show running. And the reason why. I've been using show running instead of these like other producer.
[00:21:01] John Asante: jobs, a lot of these other jobs, senior producers, supervising producer, managing producer, get interchange. And when I talked to someone actually, when I was networking out here in LA several years ago, like before the pandemic and I told someone what I did at some like podcasting event, and I think they worked in TV or film.
[00:21:18] John Asante: And they said, Oh, that sounds a lot like show running in TV. And I go, Oh, I don't even know what a showrunner is, but then they explained it. And it is pretty similar. I mean, they do. definitely other stuff, but it is a very translatable term to help folks in other entertainment industries understand what you do.
[00:21:34] Sidney Evans: Okay. So yeah you actually mentioned, I'm glad you, well, first of all, thank you for, for explaining that. And then you also mentioned, I guess this is a good opportunity to point out, but you were networking with someone in LA and I forgot to put this in my notes, but like the building relationships, part of it.
[00:21:50] Sidney Evans: There's kind of this evolution that you go through with, with, when you're developing a skill, then you get good at it, then you start finding and working things like that. Especially, you know, speaking from my experience, like I, the reason why I love audio so much is a big part of it is the technical side of things.
[00:22:06] Sidney Evans: And then it involved into more of the creative. And now it's kind of like a. I get to fulfill, you know, the, the left and right brain aspect of it. But then, you know, then you kind of got to start venturing into like understanding the business and then also like building relationships and stuff, which is like kind of the hard part of it, you know, obviously learning the skill is hard, but that's the kind of stuff is just like, man, why can't I just do the thing and then just.
[00:22:33] Sidney Evans: Stuff just, you know, follow my plate or in my lap, and it doesn't necessarily work that way. So I guess two questions. First is what is your approach to networking or building relationships? And then second is like, how has that led to opportunities in your career?
[00:22:48] John Asante: My approach is to kind of make sure that the there's a give and take that it's not a one sided sort of networking thing.
[00:22:55] John Asante: I'm not coming in and asking for, Hey, do you have a contact at this company? Or, Hey, can you help me book this person? I want to be able to help that person out too. Like if there's some, they're looking for a job. Or trying to connect with someone at a company that I can help them out to because they're, I noticed like within the first year or so living in LA, when someone would be like, Hey, let's go to lunch.
[00:23:18] John Asante: I took it as, even though I lived in New York and DC beforehand, Atlanta, which all have their own entertainment hubs in my mind, I was like, Oh, they want to go to lunch and be friends. This is great. And then I get to the end of the lunch and they're like. Ayo, so what can you do for me? I mean, without saying that and I, and I would sometimes stupidly go, yeah, sure.
[00:23:38] John Asante: I'll connect you with that person or, you know, I'll teach you how to, how I do my job. And then I, my buddy of mine's like, you can't do that. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta get them to charge you for that. And I was like, I can do that. They're like, yeah, that's consulting. And so. Yeah, I think that's it. It's like another way is if it's not necessarily a give and take symbiotic relationship or a bartering thing, then my next approach, and I've done this more as an independent producer who now owns their own runs their own production company, is that I need to make sure that people pay me for my skills.
[00:24:07] John Asante: Like I went to school for this. I've done this for nearly about 15 years. I've like gone through it. I've grinded. I'm not going to give away my information for free. So it's like, you know, it's no about knowing how much you're worth, like state your rate. And that really got rid of a lot of people for me.
[00:24:25] John Asante: Like there'd be, I'd be like, Hey, my rate is this. And they, and then nothing, I wouldn't hear from them. Or I'd say that my rate is this and they go, cool. Can we negotiate? And I said, okay, you know, we'll figure something out. Or they'd be like, great. You know, and I think my other approach is like, come with a sense of humility and respect and niceness, but not being too nice.
[00:24:45] John Asante: Because I have tried not to burn any bridges in my career there. Sure. There's a couple of folks that I'm maybe. I haven't put off when maybe I feel put off by them because they didn't feel like they respected me or really believed in like my, my career path or my, what I was trying to do. I'm not going to name these bosses, but,
[00:25:06] Sidney Evans: but
[00:25:07] John Asante: yeah, I was like, I'm sure you can relate.
[00:25:11] John Asante: But as a black man in this industry and being like in the minority, really. It's like, you have to kind of keep up this thing of like, what makes you like a viable candidate or a person to like, then tap years later? Like, here's a prime example. When I worked at NPR, when I did my second job, I moved from DC, New York.
[00:25:29] John Asante: This was back in 20, gosh, it was like the end of 2012, the beginning of 2013. I worked on a show called Ask Me Another. And one of the partners for the show because it was a co production between NPR and WNYC. He and I were pretty friendly. We'd always like chat at the live shows that we did. Live the tape shows that we taped in Brooklyn.
[00:25:48] John Asante: And years later, when I was actually trying to move out to LA and try to apply the job at Stitcher, I looked on LinkedIn and I was like, Oh man, he's a Stitcher. This is great. Like, Let me just like send them a note. Let's see what happens. And I didn't even send them a note to say, Hey, could you put in a good recommendation for me?
[00:26:04] John Asante: I just said, Hi, been a minute. Hope you're doing well. I'm applying for the senior producer job. Do you think I'd be a good fit? I could have gone further to say, Hey, can we chat? And at the time I didn't really have that mindset, but, and he said, yeah, you're definitely a great fit. I'll put in a good word for you.
[00:26:20] John Asante: And then like that, and I still went through the interview process had like four or five interviews. But if it weren't for him, I don't think I would have been on the radar. Cause I think there was a job where I'm sure hundreds of people applied just guessing. And so that's it. It's just like, you know, be respectful to everybody.
[00:26:37] John Asante: But also know your worth.
[00:26:40] Sidney Evans: And I struggle with this is you kind of got to strike a balance, you know, you want to be assertive, you want to be proactive, but you don't want to be annoying or pushy or disrespectful or completely self serving. You kind of got to strike a balance, but like, like you mentioned, like, especially with.
[00:26:58] Sidney Evans: The state of the industry and hopefully, you know, it won't last forever, but, you know, just applying to, to job job postings and just praying and wishing like that's, you know, that, that, that doesn't work, you gotta, you gotta have some type of connection, whether it's, we have to have some type of connection or find other ways to.
[00:27:20] Sidney Evans: You know, make you stand out from the crowd, whether it's like creating content or, you know, hosting a podcast or things like that. So where you're, you're top of mind and you're like, okay, this person really stands out for the crowd. And I also, I know you briefly mentioned on, you know, charging with your worth and, you know, Not giving away everything and you know, you know, making sure that there's a, a value exchange.
[00:27:42] Sidney Evans: Have you, in terms of the audio industry, like it's something that I see that maybe it's undervalued a little bit so people aren't as, will, aren't willing to pay as equitable as you think they should. I guess this is a striking balance thing too, because if you're just starting, like you wanna get opportunities so you may be able to do things for free to, to, you know.
[00:28:03] Sidney Evans: Build your resume or for cheap, but then how do you get to the point where you're charging to where sustainable and, you know, you can be confident in it and, you know, not be in such scarcity that you're willing to walk away when, you know, people can't like meet the standards or the prices or the value that you see for yourself.
[00:28:25] John Asante: Yeah, that's a, Ooh, this is a tough one. I'm going to try to give it in a way that is broad, more broad. Partly because and maybe for those starting out partly because I had, I was working in this industry, like at least 10 years before I started charging people for like consulting type things and then went on my own.
[00:28:44] John Asante: So I already kind of knew literally what I was worth. I talked to folks that basically took like how much I was making in my last job. Divided it down to like how much it was per hour. Read some stuff and then tweaked it by adding about 20 to 30 percent to that. Because. as someone who's independently employed, I'm not getting 401k benefits or medical benefits or other stuff for through an employer.
[00:29:10] John Asante: So I need to make up for that. And then going from there. And I, so I set that rate and then depending on who I'm working with, I, what I would do is like, if it's a company, like a corporation or a big place, I'm like, you can pay more. And, you know, people even told me that it was a matter of talking to folks.
[00:29:24] John Asante: I'm like, I'm upcharge it a bit. If it's someone maybe on my side. Similar level, I'm gonna hit that regular rate. But if it's like a friend and family or someone younger in their career, maybe someone who seems like a mentee or is a mentee, that kind of depends. I'll give something a bit lower, I think for in terms of building up to that point of when do you charge, I think it also depends on how much you've done.
[00:29:46] John Asante: Like if you've done maybe an internship or like even, I would even say maybe like even have like entry level job or two, I think. You could start off by kind of doing what I did of like taking that rate, you were, you were charged and go from there and kind of toggle with it. But also give the example that like, would you go to a lawyer and just say, Hey, yo, can you help me for free?
[00:30:09] John Asante: Like, would you go to an accountant? Would you go to think about all the other industries that are out there that like, just because the barrier to entry is low in podcasting and anybody could do it. doesn't mean because you have those skills, you should give those away for free. And it's like, you almost have to turn the question to that person.
[00:30:27] John Asante: I think there's maybe some give and take where maybe you do a little bit for less to start. But I think once you get those credentials up and you've got those like reps on your belt and you've done stuff independently and maybe maybe you've done some freelance stuff here and there for folks, like for state your worth, like for sure, do it.
[00:30:44] John Asante: I wish I did it sooner.
[00:30:47] Sidney Evans: I'm glad you said that because I when I started working at frequency our CEO was like very transparent about, about including us in not just the department that we're in, but like, okay, we, this is a potential cloud we're going to pitch them. This is the deck. And I started to see numbers and stuff.
[00:31:05] Sidney Evans: And I was like. Wow. These are, these are the type of numbers that are being thrown around. And then also when I joined like these communities, like air media and pod people I started to see like, you know, cause pod people used to have a weekly thing where they would post jobs and then they also would hire people cause they actually produce shows too.
[00:31:23] Sidney Evans: So they would get clients and then they would reach out to the people based on like, you know, their profile to try to fill those roles and like, I probably within a week or two of signing up. Like they reached out to me because I think it was like an engineer or something like that. And they told me what the pay was.
[00:31:39] Sidney Evans: And I was like, I have been doing myself a disservice from that day forward. I was like, I gotta, I gotta be okay with the no, but I can sleep knowing that. Okay. This is what I charge. This is the rate because I know the numbers that's out there. And, you know, as people say, you know, put some respect to my name, but let's just, just respect me and what I do in the time for me to develop this skill and you know, really pursue it and do it at a high level.
[00:32:05] John Asante: Exactly. And I'm really glad you brought up those resources because part of it is that if you don't know what to charge, where do you go? And those air, the association of independence and radio. They have a really great rate guide that they keep updating. I think they're actually working on a new update where they tell you what the levels are for producers, editors, engineers composers, how much you should be charging.
[00:32:27] John Asante: And that I would say they more so adhere to public radio type rates. So it's a little bit lower, but it's a really good starting point. I I've used that once I went
[00:32:35] Sidney Evans: independent. I just recently, I actually let last week, I I'm doing my first tape sync, and I was like, I've never done, I don't know what to charge.
[00:32:43] Sidney Evans: They were, and they were like what's the I'll just play with it, pay whatever like the rate, the industry rate is. And I was able to look it up and see what it was. And, and they were like, okay, well, that's, that's, that sounds good to us. So those starting off, if you want, just want to get in the ballpark where you're really trying to make the transition from, Doing stuff for cheap to, you know, stuff that's more sustainable.
[00:33:04] Sidney Evans: It's definitely take advantage of those. Like I say, air media, pod people and just Google, there's a lot of little I guess, communities or, or sites or resources out there to where you can be informed about that type of stuff.
[00:33:18] John Asante: Yeah. And this goes back to connections. I, like I talked to my connections and said, Hey, yo, what should I charge?
[00:33:23] John Asante: What am I worth? And even if you don't have those connections, I feel like a lot of folks in the audio industry. Especially those who have worked for companies are usually pretty friendly about cold emails or call not calls. I should say cold linkedins emails. I've fielded plenty of them. I mean, honestly, it's a matter of just putting it out there and see who comes back.
[00:33:44] John Asante: Sometimes people don't get back for whatever reason. But those are the folks who can you can also ask like this should be like, Hey, I'm just trying to Get to the point where people pay me. What do you think I should charge of? What are the rates here? Just to get an extra sense of what's going on
[00:34:01] Sidney Evans: Okay to transition a little bit.
[00:34:02] Sidney Evans: So you you worked in public radio? Started working for a podcast production companies, and then you, you made the venture to do that independently. But I, I want you to, to speak on that. Like maybe I guess some words, some of the challenges and takeaways from that. And then also I saw your LinkedIn profile too, and you've mentioned it a couple of times about, Mentoring up and comers and things like that.
[00:34:26] Sidney Evans: What do you get out of mentoring and do you suggest others do it as well?
[00:34:31] John Asante: Going independent was a huge undertaking. It was honestly something that I was incredibly afraid for, afraid of, for my entire career. I had heard so many horror stories of folks, you know, doing freelance pieces or production pieces for companies and having to chase down payroll and they're like, am I going to make rent and what's out there?
[00:34:56] John Asante: And it's changed quite a bit. Like I would say, like pre sale to post serial and just as the podcast industry has evolved, it's really changed a lot where the freelance market, the contract market is different. But. I think the biggest undertakings for me were like, one, how do I keep a sense of like constant work coming through?
[00:35:14] John Asante: Cause there were like one or two projects that worked on were very much freelance where they were like, Hey, we're going to have you work on this like a couple of hours a week here and there. You just invoice us when you know, you're ready. Or like, you know, you hit a point or finish this episode. And so it was like really sporadic.
[00:35:29] John Asante: So I'm out at the Some days, some weeks would be five hours. Some weeks would be 15, but most of the stuff, vast majority of the stuff I do is on contracts. So these are like two, three, six, nine month gigs, sometimes even a year. And I'm trying to keep at least a couple going at a time. So I think because I had been paid biweekly my entire career, even, even as far back as my first job at Burger King, when I was 15, I was used to getting a paycheck every other week, no matter how much or how little it was resetting my mindset.
[00:35:58] John Asante: So then be like, okay, you got to save some money and know that you may not get paid for like a month or two because of the way things go and the way that companies pay and that's okay. Like you're going to have some months where you're making a like bank and some months where you're, it looks like you're in the red.
[00:36:11] John Asante: So that was one of the biggest undertakings. Number two was just trying to figure out how do I do this all financially? What do I need to save? I talked to folks about whether or not I should set up an LLC. They said, yes, for a few purposes, a few reasons, my rate, how do I figure that out? Just like we'd, I went through the same thing that we just talked about, figuring out how to like do my taxes as an independent producer, contractor, small business owner finally like having to hire an accountant for that.
[00:36:41] John Asante: We're just crazy. And I'm like, dang, and it makes you really realize how much comes out of taxes. Because when you're a full time employee, I don't think most of us really think about it. We're like, all right, cool. Just look at the, you know, we're just seeing like what, what the net worth is, you know, how much we're making net.
[00:36:54] John Asante: But now when you're a contractor, it's like save 30%, you know, make sure you can pay for your medical bills and like your, yourself, how do you pay yourself, but also keep stuff for the, for later your overhead. And thankfully in an industry like this, your overhead should be pretty low. Like we're not, you know, subscriptions, maybe some gear here and there, bit of travel.
[00:37:13] John Asante: And then it was like, I think another undertaking or experience I went through is like, how do I keep these gigs consistent? Like how am I reaching out to companies? How vocal do I need to be about Like shouting from the rooftops saying, Hey, I'm looking for work. How do I work on my connections to then lead to gigs?
[00:37:32] John Asante: Cause it's kind of like, so a lot of these are long games, like it's changed. And I will say my situation is atypical in a way. I mean, yes, everybody's situation. Doing the independent thing, small business thing is different, but mine is atypical in that. And I will be pretty frank. And I said this when I finally announced this, like publicly to my friends a year into doing it, cause I was so nervous that it was going to fail was that when I left my last job at pineapple street studios in 2022, I left with a lot of skills knowing how to balance multiple projects as a showrunner, knowing a lot of people in the industry, but also I married, I have a wife who has a full time job.
[00:38:09] John Asante: I have medical benefits through her, so I didn't have to worry about that. We were able to like pay the rent on our house. We were renting at the time pretty easily because we had double income coming in. I had a good amount of the gear I needed already set up, like the recording gear I have. I'd already bought my full time job.
[00:38:28] John Asante: I also. Was able to save a good chunk of money before I went independent. And I was able to really, I went with like a four month plan going like, okay, I'm going to aim to leave at this point, but if at the earliest, but I will stay around in this job until I need to. And. I came out the gate being like, I'm not just going to jump and leave and just try to figure it out.
[00:38:49] John Asante: I want to leave with like one or two gigs secured. And at the time in 2022, this is like April, I ended up landing, like I got like offers for three contract gigs straight up. And I was very lucky. I feel very fortunate. I took two of those. One of those just time wise, I was like, I can't do everything. And I was in a very fortunate point where I had too much work coming in that I couldn't do.
[00:39:10] John Asante: And I didn't want, I was not at the point where I wanted the subcontract. I thought that was going to be kind of messy. I wasn't planning to make my own company, like a production company at the level of like pineapple street studios or, you know, Gimlet or, or a network or whatever. Like that was not my ambition.
[00:39:26] John Asante: If anything, I was so stressed in my last job that I was thinking like, okay, if there's a way for me to like spread out the work a bit and maybe not be managing folks at the same time, maybe that's better for my health. And so those, those are the experiences I went through and those are the big undertakings, but it's been a trip.
[00:39:42] John Asante: I mean, no two days are the same. It's the, I think the benefit of being. Being independent is that it's allowed me to really kind of test out different places to work. Not to say that when I was like frustrated in my last job and looking for another job that I had my choice of where to go. I wouldn't say that.
[00:39:56] John Asante: Like, yeah, sure. I did some interviews here and there, but it was like, I was like, is the grass really going to be greener on the other side if I go to a different another company where, but now as you know, independent producer contractor, I've worked with like, At least 10 other companies. And you start to get the inner workings of how these companies work.
[00:40:15] John Asante: Sure, contractors and freelancers to some extent are treated differently than full time employees, but at least you get to kind of know the nature of their inner workings, like how How they run stuff, you know, so in the event, if I ever did get hired by a company or went to try and apply for a full time job later or do more work than I know what I'm getting into.
[00:40:35] John Asante: And then going through the mentoring part, I actually have done quite a bit of mentoring when I was a full time employee, partly because a lot of the companies I work for were like, Hey, we bring in interns like interns are part of like the lifeblood of our company, especially at NPR. Okay. Like when they had internship, when they had an internship program, which unfortunately I think they discontinued because of some budget cuts, which I'm very disappointed in because a good amount of the staff were interns at some point, including myself, even before me, but I would be a mentoring interns.
[00:41:07] John Asante: Like every semester there was like, there were news interns coming in. You know, I was contributing, helping them out. Cause people would help me out too in the three internships that I did. And you know, I was helping them just make connections, literally learn how to cut tape how to write better, everything.
[00:41:23] John Asante: And. Now and then getting into like doing this all online during the pandemic, or even people in different states, I was able to figure out how to translate those skills online. It was a little trickier, but I did it. And now working independently, I still do some mentoring, especially with the folks that I've already established relationships with in my past jobs.
[00:41:42] John Asante: Those are the ones who I'm like, not necessarily going to charge per se, getting back to money of like for different skills, but they do know that like, They know what I'm worth. And if, if it came to that, they would but this way of giving back now as an independent person, I had to strike a balance between how much do I, can I do physically?
[00:42:02] John Asante: And how much do I want to do? You know, in terms of my work, like I got to put on my, like, what's the thing with when you fly? So you got to put on your oxygen mask before someone else's, you know I still like to do it. It's just a matter of when is it possible? And not necessarily what am I getting out of it, but really like legit, when is it possible?
[00:42:21] John Asante: And I, I think I've been able to do that in some ways here and there. Especially for folks reaching out who are also going independent, who may be earlier in their career. I've done that with a few folks and that's been great to just sit down with them and be like, Hey, I'm going to just straight up tell you what it's like.
[00:42:36] John Asante: Like and how much it's evolved, how much it's changed and what you should do. And it feels really good because a lot of the folks I'm doing this for actually at this point, I committed myself to do this like five years ago. I'm like, I'm only, I don't care who thinks this is like weird or whatever. I don't think for this podcast, they will.
[00:42:52] John Asante: Cause you're interviewing black men, women, black people in the industry. But like years ago, I was like, I'm only giving advice. To black and brown folks, people from marginalized communities, LGBTQ community, like, because I saw so many folks who like, maybe I gave a little bit of advice to who are white, make leaps and bounds sometimes even past me.
[00:43:11] John Asante: And I was like, this is the same, right. You know? Like, I got to be helping these folks who are like, not as well represented in this, who may be doing this at a hobby level, a passion level, who really want to get to doing this at a professional level as well, that may not have the ends, that may not have been able to get an NPR or a production company.
[00:43:30] John Asante: That's, that's where I'm at. That's, it's been really empowering for me. I just want to see the industry grow and I want to see people, more people like us in there.
[00:43:38] Sidney Evans: Yeah. I mean, that was, that was. The main motivation for the podcast, because I mean, like most spaces, you know we, we, we are, we are a minority and, you know, as optimistic and as skillful as you may be you know, when maybe the opportunities aren't coming as, as, as abundant.
[00:43:57] Sidney Evans: Like, you know, it's all, it kind of always comes up to into your mind. It's like, especially when you're actively like applying the things that you're, and it just kind of keeps you in the head. Like, man, if I, my skin color was different, like, would it be a little easier, like, it's just hard not to, you know, ask yourself that, but then you kind of got to You know, push it forward and, you know, continue with, you know, forging ahead, like, you know, so, and especially during, during this time, like, it's like, okay, once you commit to it, you got to see it through, like, no matter what waves of emotion that you may, you may experience that, you know, once you decide, like, whatever happens, I'm just going to keep going.
[00:44:32] Sidney Evans: You do that. So as far as the mentor thing, before we jump into the last. For like, which is kind of more rapid fire and general questions. If someone's listening to this and was like, okay, I want to have one takeaway that, that I can apply to my career, what would you like them to walk away with?
[00:44:51] John Asante: If you have the idea and the passion for it, just do it.
[00:44:55] John Asante: Go for it. For anybody I talk to who's like, I want to make a podcast, and they've been thinking on it, mulling over it for months, maybe years. I've been there before. I'm like, just take a shot. Take a shot. Take a shot at it. Do it. Even if you're doing it as a passion project or a hobby, you never know what it could lead to.
[00:45:13] John Asante: I've seen plenty of people do that and now they have full time jobs as audio producers, engineers, sound designers, editors. And it was just because they had that self starting. Like attitude and just drive to do it on their own. And I think employers like that. It's helped me out too. I think that's the, the, probably the most
[00:45:32] Sidney Evans: succinct advice I can give, right?
[00:45:35] Sidney Evans: I mean, that's what I'm, this is, this is what I'm doing. Like I've, I've, I've had this idea for this for years. So I love that advice. All right. So. Last like I said, last portion of the show, and these are just, we start off with getting a little bit more about you as a person. Now we're going to end with your tastes and your interests.
[00:45:52] Sidney Evans: So, favorite album of all time? God, man, you can put me on the spot like that. I was like, man, I could
[00:45:58] John Asante: just
[00:45:59] Sidney Evans: I tried to lead you in and get your mind going. Favorite
[00:46:02] John Asante: album of all time. Man, if this were by genre, I could do it. Man. Okay. Actually, I got one. This probably is a one all across the board. Midnight Marauders by Tribe Called Quest.
[00:46:11] Sidney Evans: Okay. I haven't, obviously I know who Tribe Called Quest is, but I haven't, a lot of times, like I go through these phases of where I'm introduced, not introduced. Well, like I I'm, I'm aware of the group, the artist, producer, whatever. And, you know, I kind of, I've, I've heard the stuff that plays on the radio, like the, the real popular stuff.
[00:46:29] Sidney Evans: But then at some point I go down that road of, okay, I'm gonna go listen to everything they've done and really appreciate it. You know, be able to consume it for what it is. And I actually was, there was a movie and me and my girlfriend just watched it. It was the sonata of Wesley Snipes. I forgot the name of the movie, but Q tip was in it.
[00:46:46] Sidney Evans: Cause she was like a singer and they were working together. And I think that was a sign. Cause I watched that and then you just mentioned that. So I think I need to go listen to like all tribe stuff. Yes. And really, you know, give them the flowers for, for what they have done. Okay. So next favorite producer, hip hop army producer.
[00:47:06] Sidney Evans: Well, I guess it doesn't have to be just like favorite producer. Are you talking about music producer or music producer? Yes.
[00:47:12] John Asante: Ooh, I think I got to say Pharrell Pharrell. Yeah. Oh, always been a fan from, from the Neptune. Oh my God. I mean, The Neptune, so many of those beats just like remind, like, just like mark my childhood and my, and my teen years from the Neptunes to N.
[00:47:30] John Asante: E. R. D. to Clipse. Oh my God. Love what they've done, what he's done with Clipse and just so many artists afterward. And just, I just think he's an incredibly talented and creative.
[00:47:41] Sidney Evans: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You can't go, cannot go wrong with Pharrell. Yeah. Okay. Next, favorite film score or soundtrack?
[00:47:48] Sidney Evans: Soundtrack.
[00:47:50] John Asante: Ooh, favorite film score, soundtrack. I want to go toward, oh my God, I'm trying to think if it's a Spike Lee movie and I'm completely forgetting which one it is. Oh my God. Is it Do the Right Thing? I gotta, I think I gotta say Do the Right Thing. Yeah.
[00:48:04] Sidney Evans: Yep. Do the Right Thing.
[00:48:06] John Asante: Yep.
[00:48:07] Sidney Evans: Okay. And last favorite TV theme song.
[00:48:12] John Asante: Oh man, this is a good one. Cause I'm like, I've been hitting this nostalgia point. Oh man. I feel like it's between the fresh Prince and weirdly enough, family matters.
[00:48:22] Sidney Evans: Family matters. I, most of the, and one of the episodes that I just recently put out, cause most people so far have said fresh Prince. Yeah.
[00:48:33] Sidney Evans: But I didn't want to say first Prince. So I said family matters because that was, that's like the most, TV theme songy, I could think of, but then later on I started thinking of like older ones like Sanford and Son and Jefferson's and stuff like that.
[00:48:46] John Asante: Yeah, where like they tell the plot of the, of the, the show in the theme song, which is not a thing anymore, you know?
[00:48:53] John Asante: Yeah.
[00:48:54] Sidney Evans: They don't, they just try to
[00:48:56] John Asante: make it as short as possible. Now get, get into it. And if it is short, like any, any like Netflix or max is like, skip
[00:49:02] Sidney Evans: intro. Yeah, you can skip. Cause they know that attention span is as short. So they give you that option. I actually, you know, I thought of one that really is my favorite.
[00:49:10] Sidney Evans: Kenan and
[00:49:10] John Asante: Kel.
[00:49:12] Sidney Evans: Kenan. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one too. I say, I'll be forgetting. Oh, I forgot about those.
[00:49:17] John Asante: I mean, like, just like Coolio doing Kenan and Kel and wasn't all that, was that was that TLC? It was TLC. Yeah. Yeah. But I got to say
[00:49:26] Sidney Evans: Kenan and Kel cause Coolio just so good on that. Oh my God.
[00:49:29] Sidney Evans: That, was, that was, that was a good, that's a good one, man. I, I forgot about that one completely. All right. Yeah. But those are, those are some great, great, great responses. Some new stuff, some stuff we haven't heard. On the show so far, but yeah, I think we can wrap up here, man. I appreciate you coming on, share your experiences, but before we hop off, I do want you to would appreciate if you could share where we can find you, connect with you, look at more, I know we got into like the skill itself, but we didn't mention as much as the actual shows, the things that you worked on.
[00:49:58] Sidney Evans: So where can they like, you know, find all that stuff, listen to it. If they would like to. And if there's anything upcoming that you would like to promote you could take the time to do that as well. Sure.
[00:50:07] John Asante: Yeah. So you can find all the work that I've done, all 30 something podcasts and radio shows on my website, John Asante.
[00:50:14] John Asante: com. A S A N T E. That's how you spell it. Let's see. Oh, on social media, I'm really just on Instagram. I'm at the John Asante, T H E. John Asante and Twitter sometimes at JKB Asante and not really on the Tic Tac though. I should probably get on it. I am resisting not not because I don't like it just because I know it's going to suck up my time.
[00:50:39] John Asante: And then the most recent my current I guess client projects to put up professionally with a show. I'm producing right now. It's a show called one song. It's a music analysis podcast. So if you like shows like Song Exploder or Switched on Pop or Broken Record, it's kind of in that realm. So every episode we break down one song from the pop culture canon from the past 60 years.
[00:51:02] John Asante: Everything from hip hop to pop, rock, R& B, funk, soul, jazz, disco, you can see I've produced, I've produced a lot. rehearse this, but we break down the cultural significance of the song, why it's important, why you should listen to it again. And then we break it down. Stem by stem, like the x ray of the song, you get to hear the isolated drums, the vocals, the keyboards, the anything.
[00:51:21] John Asante: And. It's just such a fun show. I've really enjoyed it. I've produced episodes on like Miley Cyrus's Flowers, The Weeknd's Can't Feel My Face gosh, we, it's been a bunch. It's amazing. So yeah, check it out. One song.
[00:51:36] Sidney Evans: Okay. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a very, very curious. I'm gonna have to go take that out. How does that work with like, does that following the fair use.
[00:51:44] Sidney Evans: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:51:48] John Asante: Yes. That's how I was
[00:51:51] Sidney Evans: about to say, cause if y'all, if you want to just play it, you might have to get it to like public domain, which is from like 1915 or something. Okay. Just, just, just curious. Very good question.
[00:52:03] John Asante: Yeah. Fair use for yourself. Yeah.
[00:52:06] Sidney Evans: Okay. Well, cool, man. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:52:08] Sidney Evans: I'm gonna go, I'm gonna, Check that out and everybody listening, visit his website and check out the other things stuff as well. But like I said, appreciate you coming on enjoyed having you on. And for those listening I'll catch you on the next episode.
[00:52:24] Sidney Evans: Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Please don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review. If you'd like to work with me or connect, please go to soundbysiit. com and schedule a call there. You can also check out the full list of productions I've worked on. If you'd like to connect on social media, my handle is soundbysaid.
[00:52:45] Sidney Evans: com on Twitter and Instagram. And I'm Sidney Evans on LinkedIn. Don't forget to follow Beyond the Threshold on Instagram as well. I'll catch you on the next episode.